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low tax small government party. the other party leadership proposes, wait for it, $800 billion in tax increases. it's noted that the democrats have celebrated the proposal put out by president obama. meanwhile, you have a number of republicans slamming speaker boehner. how would you describe his position right now? >> well, he really didn't win for losing. he's trying to say to president obama if i wanted topaz your proposal i can't do it. he's really truly between a deal and promise and getting the fight over with and a conference that won't allow it. i think what senator demint is saying and house republicans are saying to john boehner is, let's go over the cliff. that we can live with the sequester and we absolutely will not raise tax rates no matter what. what that does is eliminate all of the tax cuts and then there's a new fight in january to push obviously by the democrats to restore tax cuts for 98% of americans. and then that will be muddied by the need for a debt ceiling increase and the fight goes in to f
low tax small government party. the other party leadership proposes, wait for it, $800 billion in tax increases. it's noted that the democrats have celebrated the proposal put out by president obama. meanwhile, you have a number of republicans slamming speaker boehner. how would you describe his position right now? >> well, he really didn't win for losing. he's trying to say to president obama if i wanted topaz your proposal i can't do it. he's really truly between a deal and promise and...
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Nov 29, 2012
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the president's idea is raising taxes on income over a quarter million dollars but keeping the bush tax cuts for everybody else. that idea is very popular. 60% support. it is a very popular plan that the president is trying to drum up even more support for now with these campaign style trips. now, on the other side, what the republicans want to do, their plan is to limit deductions, limit tax deductions. that's their plan instead. that, in contrast to the president's proposal, is not popular. more people oppose that idea than support that idea. even republicans hate the republican idea. look at 39% of republicans support the republican proposal. that's before you get to the other part of the republican proposal, something being floated by republican senator bob corker of tennessee, an idea we should raise the eligibility age for medicare. that is a wildly unpopular idea. more people oppose than support that idea by a 37% margin. it is more unpopular among republicans than the general public. republicans have not convinced their own voters let alone the rest of the country. they have not
the president's idea is raising taxes on income over a quarter million dollars but keeping the bush tax cuts for everybody else. that idea is very popular. 60% support. it is a very popular plan that the president is trying to drum up even more support for now with these campaign style trips. now, on the other side, what the republicans want to do, their plan is to limit deductions, limit tax deductions. that's their plan instead. that, in contrast to the president's proposal, is not popular....
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news the president a little more than an hour ago went to northern virginia to push the middle class tax cut message by spending time with an actual middle class family. >> the message that i got from tiffany and the message that i think we all want to send to members of congress is, this is a solvable problem. i'm not going to sign any package that somehow prevents the top rate from going up for folks at the top 2%, but i do remain optimistic that we can get something done that is good for families like this one's. >> and this actually appears to be working. a new poll shows the president is running ahead of the boehner-led republican team. what about basketball you say? we go to charlotte last night, and the knicks treasury secretary, carmelo anthony, top paid and big star got hurt in this dive and had to leave the game. then the at the end it came down to this. >> looking for felton and finds smith. two seconds, one second. smith for the win. >> game over. no overtime. deal, end game, done. is this meaningless nba game in charlotte lead us to how the fiscal fiesta ends? we have a man
news the president a little more than an hour ago went to northern virginia to push the middle class tax cut message by spending time with an actual middle class family. >> the message that i got from tiffany and the message that i think we all want to send to members of congress is, this is a solvable problem. i'm not going to sign any package that somehow prevents the top rate from going up for folks at the top 2%, but i do remain optimistic that we can get something done that is good...
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i think that the fiscal cliff and it is a cliff, on january 1 withholding taxes go up to the tune of $400 billion. >> not necessarily. >> it would have a very negative effect on the economy. according to the legislation they would, jared. >> they would not. >> jared, you have to -- >> let me make a point. the treasury secretary can decide if he or she believes a deal sl imminent not to adjust withholding tables. very important. >> i'm talking about no deal and we go off the cliff. >> we go off and stay off. >> it's $400 billion. we have a lot of things to do with regard to our debt ceiling, and my feeling is no one really believes the united states of america is going to default on its debt even if it lapses. we're dealing with different things. one is real and substantive and the other is psychological. >> i really disagree. >> i know you do. >> we could have a good discussion about this if we had more time. the idea that if the debt ceiling lapses, peter, that means that we can no longer borrow from credit markets and can't finance our debt. >> we're doing most of our borrowing rig
i think that the fiscal cliff and it is a cliff, on january 1 withholding taxes go up to the tune of $400 billion. >> not necessarily. >> it would have a very negative effect on the economy. according to the legislation they would, jared. >> they would not. >> jared, you have to -- >> let me make a point. the treasury secretary can decide if he or she believes a deal sl imminent not to adjust withholding tables. very important. >> i'm talking about no deal...
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instead of raising tax rates, we can produce a similar amount of revenue reforming the tax code to close loopholes and lower tax rates. >> no, no, no. republicans are not getting the mitt romney tax proposal. time to move on speaker boehner. republicans are furious about the white house proposal. mitch mcconnell told the weekly standard he burst into laughter when he received the deal. the new second ranking republican in the senate john cornyn also disparaged the deal. >> that's a crazy idea. i'm amazed that secretary geithner had the courage to float that yesterday. hence the laughter from senator mcconnell. that's the kind of response it deserves. >> they are laughing in public, but they are panicking behind closed doors. conservative writer matt lewis, writer for "the daily caller", the notion that republicans have leverage is silly. it's the same kind of happy thinking that led to some boldly-predicting a romney victory. he said republicans are so screwed. this is why president obama is playing to his strengths. the president has never had a problem rallying the american people to h
instead of raising tax rates, we can produce a similar amount of revenue reforming the tax code to close loopholes and lower tax rates. >> no, no, no. republicans are not getting the mitt romney tax proposal. time to move on speaker boehner. republicans are furious about the white house proposal. mitch mcconnell told the weekly standard he burst into laughter when he received the deal. the new second ranking republican in the senate john cornyn also disparaged the deal. >> that's a...
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and determined to raise taxes on the rich. it's one thing during the campaign he was specific and consistent on. it seems to me like they are even more upset about what they see his like of specificity on entitlements. let's play what we heard from his chief negotiator, tim geithner yesterday. >> we can't figure out what they need. they have to tell us. then we have to take a look at it and see if it makes sense for the american public. >> when will we see people putting something on the table or is that not going to happen until like the 30th, 31st of the month? >> well, what i would say is in the white house's initial offer they did offer $400 billion in medicare cuts. and that is something that i think the republicans should actually like as a starting point because clearly the white house knows that they are going to have to go up from there. and bob corker the senator from tennessee who was also on "meet the press" yesterday has proposed some legislation that instead cuts $641 million out of medicare. we'll see some scale
and determined to raise taxes on the rich. it's one thing during the campaign he was specific and consistent on. it seems to me like they are even more upset about what they see his like of specificity on entitlements. let's play what we heard from his chief negotiator, tim geithner yesterday. >> we can't figure out what they need. they have to tell us. then we have to take a look at it and see if it makes sense for the american public. >> when will we see people putting something...
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we had the big tax breaks for wealthy americans from 2000 to 2008. what happened at the end of that period? jobs went down, the deficit went up. we also know, reverend al, from the nonpartisan congressional office, that those tax breaks for the very wealthy people have virtually no impact on jobs and economic growth and that the proposals the president has made, both the middle class tax extension, plus his small business tax cut, taken together do a lot more than you would get in terms of job growth from providing the folks at the very top with this bonus tax break. so you've got to look at the president's entire plan, both the investment in our infrastructure as well as middle class tax relief and small business tax relief and that is the jobs plan for the future and no matter what republicans say, the reality is that at the end of the day they are looking out for the folks at the very top. we know from our own history. >> yeah. >> that history is bankrupt. >> and these are things we need. if you look at what hurricane did to new york and new jerse
we had the big tax breaks for wealthy americans from 2000 to 2008. what happened at the end of that period? jobs went down, the deficit went up. we also know, reverend al, from the nonpartisan congressional office, that those tax breaks for the very wealthy people have virtually no impact on jobs and economic growth and that the proposals the president has made, both the middle class tax extension, plus his small business tax cut, taken together do a lot more than you would get in terms of job...
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all of the tax rates expire december 31st and we can deal with the tax breaks for the wealthiest most fortunate americans and others to avoid the fiscal cliff between now and december 31st but take what we agree on which is that the middle class tax cuts should be extended and tax rates should not go up for the middle class, let's do that now. the republicans refuse to do that thus far, which is sort of baffling. even some of their senior members like tom cole from oklahoma have said let's take that deal, but let's pass the tax cuts for the middle class and we're talking about making sure that tax rates for 98% of all americans and 97% of all businesses. it's a small percentage of individuals that make more than $250,000 a year that tax rates would go up just a little bit. we had an election, thomas, where americans had a clear choice and they chose and we need to make sure that we think a balanced approach that is fair, that doesn't throw the middle class under the bus and that works mathematically. so far what we've seen from republicans in the house does not work in terms of reduci
all of the tax rates expire december 31st and we can deal with the tax breaks for the wealthiest most fortunate americans and others to avoid the fiscal cliff between now and december 31st but take what we agree on which is that the middle class tax cuts should be extended and tax rates should not go up for the middle class, let's do that now. the republicans refuse to do that thus far, which is sort of baffling. even some of their senior members like tom cole from oklahoma have said let's take...
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, more tax revenue? the president responded, high-end tax cuts do the least for economic growth and cost almost $ 1 trillion. extending middle class cuts boosts consumer demand and growth. the white house released a video today showing how president obama has been consistent on his message throughout the last couple of years. it was central to his campaign. >> we need to give tax relief to working families trying to raise their kids to keep them healthy, send them to college, keep a roof over their heads. that's the choice in this election. that's one of the reasons i'm running for a second term as president. >> how quickly we forget. in the words of secretary timothy geithner, this is why republicans have no choice but accepting the tax increases on the wealthiest americans. >> why does it make sense for the country to force tax increases on all americans because a small group of republicans want to extend for 2% of americans? why does that make any sense. there's no reason why that should happen. we ca
, more tax revenue? the president responded, high-end tax cuts do the least for economic growth and cost almost $ 1 trillion. extending middle class cuts boosts consumer demand and growth. the white house released a video today showing how president obama has been consistent on his message throughout the last couple of years. it was central to his campaign. >> we need to give tax relief to working families trying to raise their kids to keep them healthy, send them to college, keep a roof...
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he's not a tax guy. he's never really worked in this sphere. >> geithner is leading these talks for two reasons. he and the president are very close. they simply click. secondly, boehner likes him. that's why geithner is the front man here. that sometimes matter more than anything else. on wednesday, the president brought back a campaign atmosphere. he surrounded himself with what he called average middle class families. it was all about ramping up political pressure on the republicans. >> if congress does nothing, every family in america will see their taxes automatically go up at the beginning of next year. >> the president had a busy fiscal cliff day, also met privately with the ceo ofs of home depot, coca-cola and yahoo!. not to be out done on this pr front, house republicans made it public, hosting a group of nervous business leaders. they've signed on to a campaign called fix the debt. they want big spending cuts to supplement the coming tax hikes. >> i'm hopeful but i wouldn't put me anywhere near
he's not a tax guy. he's never really worked in this sphere. >> geithner is leading these talks for two reasons. he and the president are very close. they simply click. secondly, boehner likes him. that's why geithner is the front man here. that sometimes matter more than anything else. on wednesday, the president brought back a campaign atmosphere. he surrounded himself with what he called average middle class families. it was all about ramping up political pressure on the republicans....
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tax rates will go up. republicans might let a vote go through on a bill that, you know, extends all the middle-class tax cuts, lets the top 2% expire. say it's a democrat bill, democrats mainly supported it with moderate republicans and senate approve that and throw in unemployment benefits and other stuff. >> and john boehner can't afford to say there's progress being made or people will have his head again. he has to say pleasant but nothing going on. >> i don't know. i think if you believe that this is the truth, you and ayman should do something like if you had mustaches shave them if you lose. >> grow them. >> grow. maybe grow one. >> universal. >> no one wants to see a mustache. >> the mustache karma of david axelrod can be channeled through cnbc's ayman jabbers. >> i'll talk to him about that. >> i checked with ben about that. he will accept payment in pennies if i lose. >> i'm looking forward to it. >> that is downright scrooge-like. ayman jabbers thank you as always for the answers my friend. >> t
tax rates will go up. republicans might let a vote go through on a bill that, you know, extends all the middle-class tax cuts, lets the top 2% expire. say it's a democrat bill, democrats mainly supported it with moderate republicans and senate approve that and throw in unemployment benefits and other stuff. >> and john boehner can't afford to say there's progress being made or people will have his head again. he has to say pleasant but nothing going on. >> i don't know. i think if...
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one is the bush tax cuts are expiring. we want to make sure they stay the same for 98% of the people and just those over $250,000 will go back to the clinton rates. and we had the greatest prosperity under bill clinton. and everybody knows that. 23 million jobs, balanced budgets, all the rest. it's not going to hurt anything. the second thing, the automatic spending cuts. so my view is we can climb down that cliff by doing what the president says on taxes, bringing home the money from the wars, and stopping those automatic cuts. we're off the cliff. and then we get together with goodwill, right in january with the new senate and the new house, and we hammer out the long-range solutions to all this. >> i want to you listen to something that your colleague, pattie murray, from washington state said on alex wagner's show about this fiscal cliff and her attitude toward it. i want to you react to it. >> sure. >> it's not a good idea to go over the fiscal cliff. no one wants to see that happen. it is a bad idea. but a worse idea
one is the bush tax cuts are expiring. we want to make sure they stay the same for 98% of the people and just those over $250,000 will go back to the clinton rates. and we had the greatest prosperity under bill clinton. and everybody knows that. 23 million jobs, balanced budgets, all the rest. it's not going to hurt anything. the second thing, the automatic spending cuts. so my view is we can climb down that cliff by doing what the president says on taxes, bringing home the money from the wars,...
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republicans have to realize they have to cave on tax rates. the only question is what to get in return. they should demand the year 2013 will be spent putting together a pro-growth and entitlement reform package to put this country on a sound financial footing through 2040. i want to show you what ishg sken boles said. he said while i'm flattered he calls it the bowles plan, it does not represent the simpson-boles plpla plan. >> i almost always agree with brooks. i think serious tax reform has to be the next phase. i hope there's a commitment to it. you know, backing up on the revenue and what republicans need to do, i think the approach that republicans are saying is if there's a number, there are ways to get -- a variety of ways to get to the number. we want to get to a number and do it in a way to stimulate the economy and encourage growth. so there's just lots of ways of getting to a number, and it doesn't have to be that top marginal rate. you can do it through closing of loopholes and capital gains and a number of different ways to do it
republicans have to realize they have to cave on tax rates. the only question is what to get in return. they should demand the year 2013 will be spent putting together a pro-growth and entitlement reform package to put this country on a sound financial footing through 2040. i want to show you what ishg sken boles said. he said while i'm flattered he calls it the bowles plan, it does not represent the simpson-boles plpla plan. >> i almost always agree with brooks. i think serious tax...
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earners will pay some minimum tax, automatically a minute tax. they have some additional taxes. they want to get rid of capital gains tax that benefitted mitt romney. it's a different arrangement but a more progressive tax. >> bill, interestingly their plan suggests that tax increases should start at $422,000 instead of $250,000 that the president has set. why would that make such a difference or not so much of a difference in circumstances? >> well, martin, it would obviously hit fewer people. you know -- >> and therefore, produce less revenue. >> produce less revenue but at higher rates potentially than the president is talking about. i mean, you know, the thing is even though we feel like we are constantly hearing from bob rubin and larry somers and roger altman, a little bit of a bad penny -- >> you have heard this before. >> on the other hand, they were absolutely right. even bill krystal agrees with them. the economy boomed during the middle of the clinton two administrations when the high tax rate was at 39.6%. we had a huge expansion of p
earners will pay some minimum tax, automatically a minute tax. they have some additional taxes. they want to get rid of capital gains tax that benefitted mitt romney. it's a different arrangement but a more progressive tax. >> bill, interestingly their plan suggests that tax increases should start at $422,000 instead of $250,000 that the president has set. why would that make such a difference or not so much of a difference in circumstances? >> well, martin, it would obviously hit...
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tax the rich first. obama, if he got his taxes on the rich, is still $8 trillion short over the next decade. that's where the energy taxes he's going to present and the value added tax that ultimately turns us into a european welfare state only of that can pay for obama's sized government. >> wow. grover, unfortunately we have to leave it there. our discussion of unicorns will continue, i'm sure, at least up until december 31st. thank you for joining us today as always. >> you got it. >> after the break, offer ver ses counteroffer. we will break both down with ezra klein when he joins us next on "now." i gave birth to my daughter on may 18th, five days later, i had a massive heart attack. bayer aspirin was the first thing the emts gave me. now, i'm on a bayer aspirin regimen. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. [ woman ] learn from my story. but proven technologies allow natural gas producers to supply affordable, cleaner energy, while protecting our env
tax the rich first. obama, if he got his taxes on the rich, is still $8 trillion short over the next decade. that's where the energy taxes he's going to present and the value added tax that ultimately turns us into a european welfare state only of that can pay for obama's sized government. >> wow. grover, unfortunately we have to leave it there. our discussion of unicorns will continue, i'm sure, at least up until december 31st. thank you for joining us today as always. >> you got...
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reform with no tax rate hikes. john boehner blasting the president's, quote, la la land offer. that just moments after the president took his plan to the people answering questions about the fiscal cliff on twitter, and with less than a month to go, the white house dispatched treasury secretary tim geithner to five sunday talk shows to declare tax rates on the wealthy are going up one way or another. >> if the republicans say, sorry, no way are we going to raise rates on the wealthy. you guys are willing to go off the fiscal cliff? >> it republicans are not willing to let rates go back up, and we think they should go back to the clinton levels, a the a time when the american economy was doing exceptionally well, then there will not be an agreement. >> while geithner was drawing a line in the sand, house speaker john boehner was busy trying to lift his jaw off the flar after geithner presented the president's debt reduction plans to him last week. >> i was just flabbergasted. i looked at him and said you can't be se
reform with no tax rate hikes. john boehner blasting the president's, quote, la la land offer. that just moments after the president took his plan to the people answering questions about the fiscal cliff on twitter, and with less than a month to go, the white house dispatched treasury secretary tim geithner to five sunday talk shows to declare tax rates on the wealthy are going up one way or another. >> if the republicans say, sorry, no way are we going to raise rates on the wealthy. you...
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the vote in front of them is going to be to cut taxes. taxes will rise anyway. the bush tax cuts will expire. then they'll bring in legislation saying let's cut taxes for the middle class and every republican out there including john boehner will say i voted for a tax cut, not a tax hike. >> well, here's tom cole speaking with chuck todd about cole's advice to pass the tax extensions for 98% of americans. here it is. rather comical. >> that advice was given in private, but you guys have a way of figuring aue ining out what? said in private. somebody leaked it out. that's fine. >> you didn't intend for this to go public? >> no. >> you did not -- this is something you were -- okay. >> but, again, it is what i said. it's not an inaccurate report. >> i mean, did republican leaders want cole's advice to be leaked? >> of course they did. i mean, and if they didn't want it to be leaked, they wanted it to be repeated. so john boehner has wiggle room. he can look like he's the tough guy to the tea party folks who have to vote him back in as speaker. tom cole is really la
the vote in front of them is going to be to cut taxes. taxes will rise anyway. the bush tax cuts will expire. then they'll bring in legislation saying let's cut taxes for the middle class and every republican out there including john boehner will say i voted for a tax cut, not a tax hike. >> well, here's tom cole speaking with chuck todd about cole's advice to pass the tax extensions for 98% of americans. here it is. rather comical. >> that advice was given in private, but you guys...
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everybody here will see their taxes go up on january 1st. i am assuming that doesn't sound too good to you. that's sort of like the lump of coal you get for christmas. that's a scrooge christmas. >> president obama warning workers what would happen if congress does nothing to avert the impending fiscal cliff. the president was at the factory of kinex toys. let's get some insight on that visit from someone who was there. michael is the president and ceo of kinex. >> good morning. >> president obama said a fam of four's taxes could go up. what impact does that have? >> it's fantastic to have the president our endorser in chief. when you remove that discretionary income and toys are a discretionary purchase as are other things. you are having some potential impact on the entire economy. obviously, toys and other things, as well. >> the president's plan calls for raising the tax rates on americans earning $250,000 or more. most republicans remain dead set against the president's plan. >> that's true. i think, though, we have to take a look at th
everybody here will see their taxes go up on january 1st. i am assuming that doesn't sound too good to you. that's sort of like the lump of coal you get for christmas. that's a scrooge christmas. >> president obama warning workers what would happen if congress does nothing to avert the impending fiscal cliff. the president was at the factory of kinex toys. let's get some insight on that visit from someone who was there. michael is the president and ceo of kinex. >> good morning....
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middle class tax cuts to proceed? that's their choice, and i think people like tom cole recognize that it's unsustainable to take the position that nobody gets tax relief because they hold out for folks with 250,000 and over to get this extra tax cut on the portion of their income above 250,000. after all, what the president is saying on that part of your income above 250,000, you're going back to the clinton era tax raites, which is 4 cents on the dollar. >> congressman van hollen, thank you for your time. we'll see what happens next. thank you, sir. >>> we could soon learn who the president wants to be the next secretary of state. chuck todd says a decision could come this week, but as we get closer to a decision, the partisan divide over the potential nomination of susan rice, considered the front-runner, seems to be intensifying. >> when it comes to susan rice as far as lindsey graham is concerned i find great fault with what she said on 16th of september. in other areas i find her lacking when it comes to being t
middle class tax cuts to proceed? that's their choice, and i think people like tom cole recognize that it's unsustainable to take the position that nobody gets tax relief because they hold out for folks with 250,000 and over to get this extra tax cut on the portion of their income above 250,000. after all, what the president is saying on that part of your income above 250,000, you're going back to the clinton era tax raites, which is 4 cents on the dollar. >> congressman van hollen, thank...
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it's not like folks who make more than 250 aren't getting a tax break, they've getting a tax break on the first 250, just like everybody else. >> congressman cole first said this in a closed door meeting with republicans yesterday. he said basically exactly what president obama just said and he then expanded on his comments instead of denying them or refusing to comment at all, which he could have done. house speaker john boehner, who needs other loyal republicans to start talking sense to crazy tea party, he was outraged by his suggestion. >> you're not going to grow the economy if you raise tax rates on the top two rates. we're willing to put revenue on the table as long as we're not raising rates. >> but that didn't stop congressman cole from going on hardball today continuing to sell the idea of making peace with the president for the sake of 98% of american taxpayers. >> if the president's willing to accept 80% of the bush tax cuts for 98% of the american people and make them permanent, i think that is a point we should agree op. >> tom cole also made it clear he is still a boehn
it's not like folks who make more than 250 aren't getting a tax break, they've getting a tax break on the first 250, just like everybody else. >> congressman cole first said this in a closed door meeting with republicans yesterday. he said basically exactly what president obama just said and he then expanded on his comments instead of denying them or refusing to comment at all, which he could have done. house speaker john boehner, who needs other loyal republicans to start talking sense...
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he voted for reduced rates on capital gains taxes. he voted to keep subsidies for oil and gas companies. that's a big one. but the best part of louie gohmert's crusade to protect the word "lunatic" is this -- >> this administration sent planes and bombs and support to oust gadhafi so that al qaeda and the muslim brotherhood could take over libya. i don't want to make you sick, but i brought an abortion to show you today. and i would just like to conclude with words of my friend, dick morris, who said, i know there's a disagreement on when life begins in america, but for heaven's sake, we ought to agree that life ends when you die. >> now we know why congressman louie gohmert of texas feels so passionately about protecting the word "lunatic." >>> coming up, one of the world's biggest companies is coming back to america. they're not worried about profits. they're worried about the american workforce. we'll explain why, next. [ male announcer ] if you're eligible for medicare, now is a good time to think about your options. are you looki
he voted for reduced rates on capital gains taxes. he voted to keep subsidies for oil and gas companies. that's a big one. but the best part of louie gohmert's crusade to protect the word "lunatic" is this -- >> this administration sent planes and bombs and support to oust gadhafi so that al qaeda and the muslim brotherhood could take over libya. i don't want to make you sick, but i brought an abortion to show you today. and i would just like to conclude with words of my friend,...
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nobody gets tax relief. we republicans will hang out right for that 2%. >> let's talk about the president's position on this. times done changed is perhaps an understatement. my paraphrase of your words. the president in a "new york times" piece today calls attention to the way the president was talking about putting revenue on the table in 2011 versus 2012. he was talking about ending deductions and closing loopholes as a primary way to get revenue on the table which is a different position than he has now. play that sound for everybody so they can remember. sorry. it's a full screen. i will read the quotation. what we said was give us $1.2 trillion in additional revenues which could be accomplished without hiking tax rates but simply accomplished by eliminating loopholes, some deductions and engaging in a tax reform process to lower rates generally while broadening the base. that is different from where the president is at now. is there currency to the republican argument that the president has moved the g
nobody gets tax relief. we republicans will hang out right for that 2%. >> let's talk about the president's position on this. times done changed is perhaps an understatement. my paraphrase of your words. the president in a "new york times" piece today calls attention to the way the president was talking about putting revenue on the table in 2011 versus 2012. he was talking about ending deductions and closing loopholes as a primary way to get revenue on the table which is a...
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only on the top income tax brackets. another senior republican lawmaker who asked not to be identified this time told reuters that the democratic bill could pass in the house of representatives if john boehner would allow such a bill to be brought to the house floor for a vote. here is boehner speaking about the president earlier today. >> members of his own party seem quite comfortable with sending the economy over the fiscal cliff. no substantive progress has been made in the talks between the white house and the house over the last two weeks. >> speaker boehner doesn't want to propose spending cuts, so now he's trying to pressure the white house to do it. >> there's been no serious discussion of spending cuts so far. and unless there is, there's a real danger of going off the fiscal cliff. >> a reporter asked senate majority leader harry reid about speaker boehner's comments. >> he says that democrats have got to get serious about cuts, spending cuts. where is the disconnect then? >> i don't understand his brain, so y
only on the top income tax brackets. another senior republican lawmaker who asked not to be identified this time told reuters that the democratic bill could pass in the house of representatives if john boehner would allow such a bill to be brought to the house floor for a vote. here is boehner speaking about the president earlier today. >> members of his own party seem quite comfortable with sending the economy over the fiscal cliff. no substantive progress has been made in the talks...
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we don't think their taxes should go up. to me since that's a point of agreement and doesn't affect either side's negotiating position on the other issues we ought to remove it from the table. make sure most americans don't have to worry about their taxes going up. having said that, again, i think the speaker's right on in terms of the proposal he's put out there. most importantly, he couples it with something the president doesn't, which is really significant spending cuts and entitlepment reform. but if we solve the tax problem for 98 ps% of the american people, continue to fight for the other 2%, to not raise rates, that seems to me we move closer it toward that spending and entitlement debate and i think that's something that the president and the democrats in general are trying to avoid. >> senator, tom coburn was on "morning joe" alongside you today and he has -- he's willing to make a deal that does involve the higher rates for the wealthy. why not go there? the president has made it clear it just is not enough money
we don't think their taxes should go up. to me since that's a point of agreement and doesn't affect either side's negotiating position on the other issues we ought to remove it from the table. make sure most americans don't have to worry about their taxes going up. having said that, again, i think the speaker's right on in terms of the proposal he's put out there. most importantly, he couples it with something the president doesn't, which is really significant spending cuts and entitlepment...
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number one, tax revenues have remained about the same regardless of tax rates. the government sort of takes in about the same regardless. and while federal income tax rates have gone down for lower and middle income families since 1980, state and property taxes have gone up by about the same amount. so federal has gone down. so here is my bumper sticker for you guys. maybe i'll print it up this weekend. >> sure. >> blame your mayor and governor. don't blame your president. >> okay 0. see, on that note then, joe, i just -- i know that it's not -- when he says i won and you don't like it, he's just putting out something there that just seems like a little tone deaf to what republicans want to hear. there are some, the consumer confidence, housing, the news on the economy, there are some signs that perhaps this administration might know what they're doing. is that fair to say? >> hold on. >> so you can't say it. >> i can't even say it. >> why don't you pull a mitch mcconnell on me? brian sullivan, thank you. all right, coming up -- >> that's how mitch mcconnell lau
number one, tax revenues have remained about the same regardless of tax rates. the government sort of takes in about the same regardless. and while federal income tax rates have gone down for lower and middle income families since 1980, state and property taxes have gone up by about the same amount. so federal has gone down. so here is my bumper sticker for you guys. maybe i'll print it up this weekend. >> sure. >> blame your mayor and governor. don't blame your president. >>...
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capital gains tax. and you even have me going, okay, so what is wrong with the party that believes in free enterprise, that believes in fair play, that believes in working-class americans being able to work hard and start their own businesses? and create their own new jobs and hire their own people? what's wrong with raising the capital gains tax from 15% to 20%? what's wrong with warren buffett's idea of having a minimum tax for the super rich of 30%? so people making the type of money warren buffett makes, the type of money that mitt romney makes, the type of money that bill gates makes. those people aren't paying 14% taxes when the rest of americans are carrying the full load. >> i think to your point about the party on this issue, absolutely. i think the party has a window now to come to the table in an honest way to be, again, the party of the middle class. more importantly, joe, to be the party of the poor, to make the argument of elevating people out of poverty into ownership through our tax syst
capital gains tax. and you even have me going, okay, so what is wrong with the party that believes in free enterprise, that believes in fair play, that believes in working-class americans being able to work hard and start their own businesses? and create their own new jobs and hire their own people? what's wrong with raising the capital gains tax from 15% to 20%? what's wrong with warren buffett's idea of having a minimum tax for the super rich of 30%? so people making the type of money warren...
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it's not increasing taxes on the wealthy, it's just blanketly you increase taxes. so you've got all this noise going on. and boehner's got to try to figure out a way to give these guys some cover but know he's got to cut the deal. to your point, leigh, about how do you begin to pull it from the big plan to a smaller plan, that's really what the white house and boehner quietly are talking about. >> and what we don't want also is i think a kind of down payment deal that sort of makes it a two-part deal that just delays everything. >> i think you're going to get some of that. i think you'll probably get the big deal for the middle class. okay, we're going to take that off the table. and graham and others have said that. we know we're not going to raise taxes on the middle class. let's let the bush tax cuts stay in place for the middle class. and then it becomes a little bit more of an interesting conversation when you're only dealing with a smaller percentage of the plan as opposed to the big piece right now. >> so how does he -- how does john boehner save face? you t
it's not increasing taxes on the wealthy, it's just blanketly you increase taxes. so you've got all this noise going on. and boehner's got to try to figure out a way to give these guys some cover but know he's got to cut the deal. to your point, leigh, about how do you begin to pull it from the big plan to a smaller plan, that's really what the white house and boehner quietly are talking about. >> and what we don't want also is i think a kind of down payment deal that sort of makes it a...
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no, it's worse -- look, our taxes are about to go up. not the taxes on our dividends though, right? that's a big part of our retirement. oh, no, it's dividends, too. the rate on our dividends would more than double. but we depend on our dividends to help pay our bills. we worked hard to save. well, the president and congress have got to work together to stop this dividend tax hike. before it's too late. at chevy's year-end event, we have 11 vehicles that offer an epa-estimated 30 mpg highway or better. yeah? hey. hey. where's your suit? oh, it's casual friday. oh. [ male announcer ] chevy's giving more. now get a 2013 malibu ls for around $199 per month, plus competitive lessees can get $1,000 toward the down payment for an even better deal. >>> good morning, everybody. i'm thomas roberts. topping the agenda the new grinch that's threatening to steal christmas, the seemingly insurmountable impasse over the fiscal cliff. live the president's pr campaign taking him outside the white house but inside the beltway. you're taking a live look at the president glad handing the group of busi
no, it's worse -- look, our taxes are about to go up. not the taxes on our dividends though, right? that's a big part of our retirement. oh, no, it's dividends, too. the rate on our dividends would more than double. but we depend on our dividends to help pay our bills. we worked hard to save. well, the president and congress have got to work together to stop this dividend tax hike. before it's too late. at chevy's year-end event, we have 11 vehicles that offer an epa-estimated 30 mpg highway or...
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the federal tax rate is currently 25%. so it will be $380 million the government gets $95 million off the top. and the winning states not too shabby either. arizona takes 5% at 9$9.5 millin and missouri stakes $7.6 millio. in the end, the two winning ticket holders end up with 25% of that original jackpot. >>> mitt romney is heading to the white house today, just not in the capacity that he hoped for three weeks ago. this afternoon he'll sit down for a private lunch with president obama. it will be the first encounter since the final presidential debate in october. the meeting fulfills an election night promise by the president to work with romney going forward. that doesn't mean the former massachusetts governor will become a regular. >> is governor romney here tomorrow in some kind of cabinet level position? >> no. >> beyond that, is there some kind of reorganization in the commerce department where governor romney could play a role? >> again, there is -- the president doesn't have a specific assignment in mind for the g
the federal tax rate is currently 25%. so it will be $380 million the government gets $95 million off the top. and the winning states not too shabby either. arizona takes 5% at 9$9.5 millin and missouri stakes $7.6 millio. in the end, the two winning ticket holders end up with 25% of that original jackpot. >>> mitt romney is heading to the white house today, just not in the capacity that he hoped for three weeks ago. this afternoon he'll sit down for a private lunch with president...
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tax cuts expire, right? >> initially they did and then were going to do tax reform. >> would they increase the taxes on the rich? >> yeah. >> they would? >> yes. >> to the same extent? >> i would have to do the math. >> don't you do any homework? >> numbers cruncher. dad, thank you so much. i wasn't chained in any way. >> no, he didn't call you co comical. >> you were not chained. >> old time memories. >> okay. >> senator claire mccaskill coming up next, joins us in washington. also cokie roberts. first to bill karins in new york. he has a check on the forecast. bill? >>> good morning to you, joe. we can say good-bye to those late summer/early fall like temperatures. the cold front is heading through neng neck and soon areas of the mid-atlantic. temperatures have fallen a little bit. watching chicago, much colder right now this hour than yesterday at this time at 27. so the midwest has returned to normal. the east coast, blustery weather will arrive during the aft afternoon. on that cold front we've had a li
tax cuts expire, right? >> initially they did and then were going to do tax reform. >> would they increase the taxes on the rich? >> yeah. >> they would? >> yes. >> to the same extent? >> i would have to do the math. >> don't you do any homework? >> numbers cruncher. dad, thank you so much. i wasn't chained in any way. >> no, he didn't call you co comical. >> you were not chained. >> old time memories. >> okay....
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by increasing taxes on things like investment income, the estate tax. you know, there's other ways to get that money. i think the important thing to keep in mind is, you know, that raising taxes on the top 2%, part of it is political. it's something that the president campaigned on. it's something that he definitely wants. and it's something that republicans are very opposed to at this point. >> ultimately how much will any of these plans really cut into the national debt, which stands at what, over $16 trillion now? >> right. well part of the issue with these plans is just that some of them -- they don't necessarily address some of the long-term issues. and so over the long-term, over the next 10 for 20 years most likely taxes will have to go up for a lot of people, not just the top 2%. some of the middle-class people will have to give up some of their tax breaks and the thing is, as well, is that there will have to be some spending cuts in health care. we have a huge demographic problem in the country with baby boomers starting to retire and taking ad
by increasing taxes on things like investment income, the estate tax. you know, there's other ways to get that money. i think the important thing to keep in mind is, you know, that raising taxes on the top 2%, part of it is political. it's something that the president campaigned on. it's something that he definitely wants. and it's something that republicans are very opposed to at this point. >> ultimately how much will any of these plans really cut into the national debt, which stands at...
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democrats bet republicans cave on taxes. how confident are democrats that they're going to win this thing, they'll make this happen. >> they feel like this looks like the 2011 payroll tax. remember at the time house republicans were not going to pass that extension to that payroll tax holiday, but they felt boxed in at the end of the day and they eventually had to do what the president wanted. democrats believe that they have the issue here, they have a bill that passed out of the senate. they think the house will adopt it. the republicans say there is just no way that's going to happen, that in order to get any sort of deal on revenue, democrats have to -- >>> have a fantastic weekend, gentlemen. coming up, we're following developing news from the supreme court where we're waiting to hear if the high court takes up several major challenges to same-sex marriage. plus -- >> i was positioning is that the right newspapers, is that the right numbers. and i was shaking. and i called my husband and i said i think i'm having a hear
democrats bet republicans cave on taxes. how confident are democrats that they're going to win this thing, they'll make this happen. >> they feel like this looks like the 2011 payroll tax. remember at the time house republicans were not going to pass that extension to that payroll tax holiday, but they felt boxed in at the end of the day and they eventually had to do what the president wanted. democrats believe that they have the issue here, they have a bill that passed out of the senate....
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it's taxes. taxes. okay, you can say taxes. when you separate taxes from revenue, we are going to raise revenue, not taxes, you get strange things, it seems. there's all sorts of privatization. take the highway, we are going to sell it to you. lease it back and get a one-time payment from that. this is something that's happening right now in baltimore that i think is pretty fascinating. take a look. >> i thought it was idiotic. why do we want to look like nascar? look like a bus going down the street. after the shock wore off, this shows how far we have to go to think outside of the box. >> reporter: chicago sold ad space on iconic bridges to bank of america. philadelphia rented out a transitation to at&t. brazil indiana let kfc advertise on fire hydrants. >> baltimore, in case that wasn't there, they are selling ad space on fire trucks. were you tempted? was there anything you were thinking of putting up on the auction block? >> we are not purists. you know, you see things get named from time-to-time. those are extremes. those
it's taxes. taxes. okay, you can say taxes. when you separate taxes from revenue, we are going to raise revenue, not taxes, you get strange things, it seems. there's all sorts of privatization. take the highway, we are going to sell it to you. lease it back and get a one-time payment from that. this is something that's happening right now in baltimore that i think is pretty fascinating. take a look. >> i thought it was idiotic. why do we want to look like nascar? look like a bus going...
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he compromised. >> he never compromised principles. >> well, he raised taxes. >> he also cut taxes. >> but he did compromise. >> that's not true. >> and at that point, cantor's press secretary yelled off camera saying what i was saying wasn't true. >> they are going to have to get real here, e.j. they are going to have to deal with some truth and some facts. otherwise, we'll never move forward. >> i think there is a myth of reagan as a pure idealog and he's also the guy that rec recognized that gorbechov was not like the other soviet leaders. i think the republicans have been taxaphobic ever since george h.w. bush raised the taxes back in 1990. he lost the election. they have been afraid to do it ever since. >> e.j. dionne, thank you so much for your time. have a nice great weekend. >> and great to be with you. thank you. >>> coming up, karl rove finally has the answer. he knows exactly why he blew through $300 million for his billionaire buddies. you've got to hear this. >>> and scott walker's so concerned about retirees that he want to get rid of same-day voting registration. i wond
he compromised. >> he never compromised principles. >> well, he raised taxes. >> he also cut taxes. >> but he did compromise. >> that's not true. >> and at that point, cantor's press secretary yelled off camera saying what i was saying wasn't true. >> they are going to have to get real here, e.j. they are going to have to deal with some truth and some facts. otherwise, we'll never move forward. >> i think there is a myth of reagan as a pure...
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we will accept some tax increases. but let's remember, there are some very important details to be worked out. how much and when. will they just say, okay, we will stand aside while democrats pass this tax cut for the middle class and then let the tax cuts for the wealthy engs pyre? that could happen. but does it happen before the end of the year? does it happen after the end of the year? >> now, dana, on that point, a lot of this is that they seem to have already lost the american public. in a new series of polls. quinnipiac shows that americans have views close to the president. 65% say raise taxes on $250,000 plus. 85% of polls pledged against raising taxes. that's 85%. 51% think that the gop is negotiating in bad faith. so the public seems to be gone from the republican cause. >> right. by two to one in virtually all of these polls we are seeing that they are likely to blame the republicans if the fiscal cliff is reached. and i think you've seen president obama going around the country, as with that family and the
we will accept some tax increases. but let's remember, there are some very important details to be worked out. how much and when. will they just say, okay, we will stand aside while democrats pass this tax cut for the middle class and then let the tax cuts for the wealthy engs pyre? that could happen. but does it happen before the end of the year? does it happen after the end of the year? >> now, dana, on that point, a lot of this is that they seem to have already lost the american...
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taxes by one means or another. so i certainly agree with him on that. and i believe the president has a high degree of resolve about that, too. so i'm all for that. >> the book is "tap dancing to work warren buffett on practically everything" the oracle of omaha. we appreciate you're coming on today. look forward to seeing you soon. >> thank you for having me. >>> two nfl players leaving lucative contracts behind in search of something higher, their story next on "andrea mitchell reports." a hybrid? most are just no fun to drive. now, here's one that will make you feel alive. meet the five-passenger ford c-max hybrid. c-max says ha. c-max says wheeee. which is what you get, don't you see? cause c-max has lots more horsepower than prius v, a hybrid that c-max also bests in mpg. say hi to the all-new 47 combined mpg c-max hybrid. i'd like to thank eating right, whole grain, multigrain cheerios! mom, are those my jeans? [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. mu
taxes by one means or another. so i certainly agree with him on that. and i believe the president has a high degree of resolve about that, too. so i'm all for that. >> the book is "tap dancing to work warren buffett on practically everything" the oracle of omaha. we appreciate you're coming on today. look forward to seeing you soon. >> thank you for having me. >>> two nfl players leaving lucative contracts behind in search of something higher, their story next on...
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those middle class tax cuts in that legislation would protect the tax cuts for 98% of americans and 97% of small businesses. that, as we are in the midst of the holiday season, is absolutely essential to continuing to get our economy turned around and focus on job creation. >> "the new york times" reporting today that negotiations are now down to just two people. the president, the house speaker. we know that some senate democrats dispute this. what do you think about this point with regard to the negotiations and who's in the room? >> i know that the president and his advisers are focused on making sure that in the discussions that they have with both the house and the senate that whatever plan they agree to includes a balanced approach. one that's fair to the middle class and one whose math makes sense and reaches the size of the duff sit reduction we need that doesn't balance all the pain on the backs of the middle class and that makes sure that we have suspending cuts and revenue. when it comes to entitlement reform, we have an opportunity to add another hundreds of billions of doll
those middle class tax cuts in that legislation would protect the tax cuts for 98% of americans and 97% of small businesses. that, as we are in the midst of the holiday season, is absolutely essential to continuing to get our economy turned around and focus on job creation. >> "the new york times" reporting today that negotiations are now down to just two people. the president, the house speaker. we know that some senate democrats dispute this. what do you think about this point...
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we go over the fiscal cliff rates reset under bill clinton and you're negotiating a tax cut not a tax increase. other thing the way weight of public opinion since that level has moved strongly against republicans. look who the public says they're going to blame if we go over the cliff, it's republicans because they see them as having forced the issue last time around, been willing to do this this time around. one reason boehner is grumbly and nervous because he doesn't have any leverage. >> i want to point this out. this is interesting in terms of the smoke and mirrors how this will play out for the republicans. in the "wall street journal" they write obama's flexible on highest tax rates. white house's flexibility, described by bowls, confirmed by the administration officials, could envision tax rates -- tax rate increase from the current level but was less than clinton era levels. if the republicans can say, we cut taxes from where they were under clinton it gives them cover though rates may go up. a weird, if there is an act of kabuki theater that would be it, right. >> i see a par
we go over the fiscal cliff rates reset under bill clinton and you're negotiating a tax cut not a tax increase. other thing the way weight of public opinion since that level has moved strongly against republicans. look who the public says they're going to blame if we go over the cliff, it's republicans because they see them as having forced the issue last time around, been willing to do this this time around. one reason boehner is grumbly and nervous because he doesn't have any leverage....
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tax cuts. are they willing to limit unemployment insurance, give up infrastructure spending, which is something the president has been talking about from the beginning, payroll tax cut. what's the white house plan here? >> well, alan simpson in addition to being an excellent dancer is a very shrewd political analyst. >> very hip, alan simpson. >> very, very, very good dancer recently. but, look, i think people talk in terms of political advantage and clearly the president is going to gain more political advantage from going off the cliff than the republicans are going to. that's where the polls are showing. that's clearly where there is going. that doesn't mean it's a good idea for the country or economically. the country is are they looking at their own political interests or do they actually want to make sure the economy stays out of recession here. this is a very dangerous game that we're playing with over the next four weeks. >> i want to bring in congressman tom price, a republican from ge
tax cuts. are they willing to limit unemployment insurance, give up infrastructure spending, which is something the president has been talking about from the beginning, payroll tax cut. what's the white house plan here? >> well, alan simpson in addition to being an excellent dancer is a very shrewd political analyst. >> very hip, alan simpson. >> very, very, very good dancer recently. but, look, i think people talk in terms of political advantage and clearly the president is...
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. >> some of it comes from the general fund, there's income taxes and other taxes in the tax code and payroll taxes that create this distinct funding mechanism. >> and some of the money in the general fund comes from the social security trust fund. >> that's right. >> i wanted to get more to the political aspect of it. so maybe popularly people don't want to see 34ed kade -- i'm sorry, medicare touched but the belt way folks, the folks that are going to be voting on this do want to see that. >> yes, would he do. >> what are we going to bring to the table? are we just going to say we're not going to bargain with you? i mean, at what level do we allow for, say, means testing? we may not like it, but that's what it's going to allow. >> means testing, we can do means testing. if you want to do means testing, there's a very efficient way of doing it. we will raise your taxes on -- >> if you have more money. >> the grand bargain. >> the reality is that's not going to happen. >> wait a second. >> that's not going to happen. we can talk about -- look, we can talk about -- >> the reason why th
. >> some of it comes from the general fund, there's income taxes and other taxes in the tax code and payroll taxes that create this distinct funding mechanism. >> and some of the money in the general fund comes from the social security trust fund. >> that's right. >> i wanted to get more to the political aspect of it. so maybe popularly people don't want to see 34ed kade -- i'm sorry, medicare touched but the belt way folks, the folks that are going to be voting on this...
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will the liberals vote for anything unless they get a rise in the tax for the top people? >> well, really, i can only speak for myself, chris, but my sense of the caucus is there are strong feelings about protecting entitlements from depredations on the other side and they want to be very clear about the details, but i think there's also a willingness to work with the president and support the president in his leadership in averting the fiscal cliff and i agree with mr. terry, we want to get this done before the end of the year so that we're not roiling markets, not disrupting people's planning for the next calendar year, and we're not having anybody's taxes go up in the middle class. >> let me get the timing right plshtion terry. you're in the majority. are you being advised by your whips there are going ton tough votes right near christmas eve or some coming back after christmas before the 31st in some crazy christmas week chaos? in other words are you being advised the big votes will come before christmas? >> our leadership and our conference has said there hasn't been
will the liberals vote for anything unless they get a rise in the tax for the top people? >> well, really, i can only speak for myself, chris, but my sense of the caucus is there are strong feelings about protecting entitlements from depredations on the other side and they want to be very clear about the details, but i think there's also a willingness to work with the president and support the president in his leadership in averting the fiscal cliff and i agree with mr. terry, we want to...
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Nov 30, 2012
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this is about tax cuts. the president is saying, renew the payroll tax cut. give tax cuts to every dollar earned up to $250,000. i don't know what they're thinking, thomas. but obviously, they are putting it all on the line for the koch brothers and sheldon adelson who earn billions of dollars. they're selfish. and there's a group called patriotic millionaires who are saying please, please, tax us fairly. and here's the point. the president is saying to the millionaires and billionaires, we're just taking you back to the tax rates that you had when bill clinton was president. and i would like to remind everybody, we had the greatest prosperity then when everyone paid their fair share. 23 million new jobs. and why is it? because the middle class had the money to spend out there, to stimulate this economy. it's a consumer-driven economy. about 70% of the economy is consumer driven. and the other thing the president put on the table, i understand, is refinancing proposal. >> right. >> where people trapped in 7%, 8% mortgages can go down to 4% and 5% mortgages ha
this is about tax cuts. the president is saying, renew the payroll tax cut. give tax cuts to every dollar earned up to $250,000. i don't know what they're thinking, thomas. but obviously, they are putting it all on the line for the koch brothers and sheldon adelson who earn billions of dollars. they're selfish. and there's a group called patriotic millionaires who are saying please, please, tax us fairly. and here's the point. the president is saying to the millionaires and billionaires, we're...
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a tax cut can't be touched. if you do that, you are raising taxes. he is known for going around capitol hill threatening anyone that ties to cut these billion dollars in wasteful tax cuts. he is providing an idealogical cover for corporate lobbying. the oil and natural gas industry provides significant funding to his foundation. >> i want to bring in my guest on exactly this question. dan? >> a very important point that i hope the president will get to. a real consolidated energy proposal. it is a direction he has been going, a little bit in the direction of clean coal i think that's the wrong direction to go. on the bigger picture, there has been nothing -- if you have to point to one thing, i'm always talking about this, that talked about the disparity, the wealth disparity we are looking at, just one thing, it has been this down ward slope in the upper bracket, marginal tax rates that have caused that. this president, that's why it is so important for us to hold on this. this president obama is not moving things back to the 50s or the 60s. >> he i
a tax cut can't be touched. if you do that, you are raising taxes. he is known for going around capitol hill threatening anyone that ties to cut these billion dollars in wasteful tax cuts. he is providing an idealogical cover for corporate lobbying. the oil and natural gas industry provides significant funding to his foundation. >> i want to bring in my guest on exactly this question. dan? >> a very important point that i hope the president will get to. a real consolidated energy...